Post by Capt_Morgan on Jan 31, 2015 0:51:13 GMT
power should exist in a shared pool and each component that uses power also has its own local pool. The component draws power from its own pool, which then draws power from the common pool to refill. If the common pool is empty, power will not drain out of other components to refill it.
creneau_cig@robertsspaceindustries.com: I believe that's how it is set up now
Capt_Morgan: I mean, that's okay and all... but there's the fact that it then prevents the weapons from preventing fire by cycle firing, in a way
Capt_Morgan: ie - you then end up with a full "magazine" in the weapons you weren't firing
Capt_Morgan: because they charged their capacitors from the pooled power
Capt_Morgan: so when you run out of power on the first set of two guns out of four (for example), you stop firing those and start firing the other two
Capt_Morgan: since you never ran out of power on the second set, you're still not drawing power from the shared pool when firing the second set, so the first set you fired starts recharging while the second set is firing
Capt_Morgan: but it still allows basically continuous fire if you just keep running a set of guns to zero at a time (unless your recharge time saps so much power you then start running out of shared power)
Capt_Morgan: it's essentially the same as firing all four guns at once until they run out of power, rather than two guns recharging twice as fast when the other weapons aren't drawing
Capt_Morgan: I don't know if there's a way to then charge faster when there isn't other load on the power supply. different examples: if you are firing two guns, you take all the available excess energy not being used by other systems and run that to recharge those two guns
Capt_Morgan: if you fire four guns, you take max excess power and divide that to get your max recharge rate for each gun because now each load wants "all available power"
Capt_Morgan: each gun*
Capt_Morgan: so lets say that four guns fire at a energy depletion rate of "magazine empties in 2 seconds" and all guns are the same
Capt_Morgan: and then for the sake of simplicity, all guns recharge at "magazine now recharges in 2 seconds given no shots fired"
Capt_Morgan: if you instead fire two guns, the guns now get a 2x recharge rate because the recharge demand on the system's excess power is now 1/2 what it was
Capt_Morgan: recharge rate should now be 1 second, but since the depletion rate is 2 seconds, you never hit depletion (or it takes significantly longer, that's actually probably something I should work the math out on since I haven't done a problem like that in a while)
Capt_Morgan: I don't know if you guys are currently doing "power" by just setting XML values for ship weapons somewhere and then the engine just takes it, or if you actually have a separate function that runs something like: "power supplied = powerplant output # - powerplant damage modifier - powerplant repair modifier; power available = power supplied - power used; power used = subsystem1demand + subsystem2demand + ...; subsystem1(weapons) = guns fired power demand;
Capt_Morgan: huh, can't format these...
Capt_Morgan: guns fired power demand = gun1 draw + gun2 draw + ..."
Capt_Morgan: and that power system is then run over messaging system ticks or something
Capt_Morgan: (I don't know how those values are managed in real time with those kinds of engines)
Capt_Morgan: *Totally separate thought* - also, just a heads up, the percentages for power available in the HUD are semi-useless. they should either change color from blue to red or be actual "progress bar" kinda things so we can see available power without squinting to read the %'s.
Capt_Morgan: or, even better, the actual lag pips should change color as the associated guns run out of power (since that's where the player is looking)
CIG Calix Reneau: ok, so if I understand the issue correctly, the buffer of capacitors somehow reduces the effect of power draw on the total system?
CIG Calix Reneau: incredulous tone unintentional, just trying to sum up
Capt_Morgan: well, it reduces the *advantage*, if you will, of firing fewer guns
Capt_Morgan: you can't increase recharge time of two guns by firing only a single fire group of two if you have six, for example
Capt_Morgan: so there is no real disadvantage to firing all six weapons at one time
CIG Calix Reneau: the capacitors aren't limited on their draw from the common pool
Capt_Morgan: hrm... I'll have to test this to be sure on my 325A, but it should be that if you only fired one M3A, for instance, the only thing you'd ever worry about is overheating
CIG Calix Reneau: so a weapon will always recharge at a given rate if there is power available, and six weapons will make there not be power available sooner than two weapons
Capt_Morgan: right, but that's not a good thing
Capt_Morgan: recharge rate should be flexible
Capt_Morgan: power draw should be uniform
CIG Calix Reneau: recharge rate will be flexible, but not with regard to weapon groups
Capt_Morgan: but if you, for instance, have 1000 power available, but only have fired two guns
Capt_Morgan: then the recharge rate should be all available excess power divided by two
Capt_Morgan: (per second)
Capt_Morgan: if you fire all six guns
Capt_Morgan: then it would be all available excess power divided by six per second
CIG Calix Reneau: oh, I see what you mean.
Capt_Morgan: draw rate would be the same. so if you completely deplete all weapons you have a much larger trough to fill
Capt_Morgan: and if you completely deplete the entire trough you then could maybe eat into other systems if you're desperate
CIG Calix Reneau: so the longer you hold down the fire button, the slower you fire?
Capt_Morgan: nah
Capt_Morgan: the more guns you add to the fire button, the longer it takes to recharge any given weapon
Capt_Morgan: and if you have an excess of power, that then gets added to the recharge rate of the weapons that aren't at 100%
CIG Calix Reneau: ok, there is a limit to power draw - it's how much power the power plant provides
Capt_Morgan: yep
CIG Calix Reneau: modified by the power triangle
Capt_Morgan: but there shouldn't be a limit to the recharge rate of a weapon
CIG Calix Reneau: which doesn't split so much as it prioritizes
Capt_Morgan: so you could make a power trough for each weapon that can be as big or as small as you want
CIG Calix Reneau: there would always be a limit to the recharge rate
Capt_Morgan: there shouldn't be
Capt_Morgan: otherwise what's the point of overloading the power triangle to weapons?
CIG Calix Reneau: what you're describing would allow it to operate below that limit
Capt_Morgan: not if you describe a given power per second limit
Capt_Morgan: if you're doing a check before fire
Capt_Morgan: it can check supply rate
Capt_Morgan: supply rate should be how power is provided (given that's how current works in real life, kinda)
Capt_Morgan: your rate of over-current is your charge rate
Capt_Morgan: and if you're under-current a significant amount, it shouldn't' fire
CIG Calix Reneau: but the thing being charged is the capacitor?
Capt_Morgan: well, that's why I kinda think the capacitor thing sorta screws with your gameplay mechanics options
CIG Calix Reneau: what is being charged, if not the capacitor?
Capt_Morgan: well it's a capacitor, of course, even if it's in the weapon, but the degree to which it works right now is over-done
Capt_Morgan: if you hit the end of the capacitor, the weapon should become a direct-draw weapon
Capt_Morgan: which pulls from a per-ms (or whatever rate you want) tick rate for the power plant "supply rate"
Capt_Morgan: so lets say the power plant supplies 10,000A
Capt_Morgan: and 5,000A is taken for shields
Capt_Morgan: 3,000A for engines
Capt_Morgan: and you have 2,000A leftover for weapons
Capt_Morgan: 2,000A gets divided by all capacitors currently not at 100%
Capt_Morgan: if you have six, you then charge at a tick rate of 2,000A / 2 weapons
Capt_Morgan: if you fire two
CIG Calix Reneau: but if you are empty and firing, it pulls directly from the 2000A?
Capt_Morgan: right
Capt_Morgan: and each weapon has a draw rate
Capt_Morgan: and if you only have 1,000A available
Capt_Morgan: maybe it only fires at 50% power if each weapon requres 1,000A
Capt_Morgan: and if you have 500A available
Capt_Morgan: maybe it doesn't fire at all
Capt_Morgan: (50% power meaning the weapon creates a projectile that then only does 50% of the weapons spec'd damage)
Capt_Morgan: you could maybe have a "system safety"
Capt_Morgan: that you could turn off
CIG Calix Reneau: that's a cool thing that is totally not supported at the moment. lol
Capt_Morgan: that allows the weapon that could pull the power from the other systems
Capt_Morgan: the weapon to pull*
CIG Calix Reneau: wouldn't that be the point of priority?
Capt_Morgan: so if you have that 10,000A power plant
CIG Calix Reneau: if you prioritize weapons over thrusters, at some point it should be hard to fly?
Capt_Morgan: and all the systems are given power at tick rates
Capt_Morgan: well, you're talking about a steady-state system setting though
Capt_Morgan: I'm talking about something that's only circumstantial
Capt_Morgan: kinda like boost but the opposite
Capt_Morgan: instead of overloading thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: I think you're losing me again, lol
Capt_Morgan: okay
Capt_Morgan: so we're back at weapons have 0A available
Capt_Morgan: capacitors are empty
Capt_Morgan: 0A are available otherwise, too
CIG Calix Reneau: you fire, nothing happens.
Capt_Morgan: hold on
CIG Calix Reneau: Hud probably wanes
Capt_Morgan: you turn off your "system safety"
Capt_Morgan: which prevents the weapons from drawing power from your thrusters/shields
Capt_Morgan: which previously had protected pipelines guaranteeing 5,000A and 3,000A, respectively
Capt_Morgan: given on a constant tick
Capt_Morgan: let's just say per second, for right now
Capt_Morgan: and you're firing a weapon with a .5s fire rate
Capt_Morgan: and each shot draws 1,000A
Capt_Morgan: per weapon
Capt_Morgan: so in that tick with 0A available to weapons, and the pilot has system safety turned off, he fires again
Capt_Morgan: the weapons then draw 1,000A from the powerplant pipeline, which means 1,000A less is delivered to shields and thrusters
Capt_Morgan: and it's prioritized based on the group prioritizations
Capt_Morgan: so let's just say the shields lose 200A, and the thrusters lose 800A
Capt_Morgan: you lose that percentage of your shields in that tick, and that percentage of your delivered thrust
Capt_Morgan: the guy holds down the fire button
Capt_Morgan: so before the next tick supplies the shields/thusters with more power
Capt_Morgan: another 1,000A are drawn
Capt_Morgan: shields/thrusters lose more power
Capt_Morgan: the pilot lets off
Capt_Morgan: the next recharges shields as if they've taken damage, thrusters as if they've overboosted or something, and weapons capacitors begin their recharge at the original rate
Capt_Morgan: (of 2,000A/2)
Capt_Morgan: "system safety" would have prevented the scenario
Capt_Morgan: and just not allowed the guns to fire
Capt_Morgan: but if a pilot is in a situation where maybe he really thinks he can get the kill, and thinks he has the shields to spare and doesn't need to adjust course
Capt_Morgan: then he's okay with the weapons draw
Capt_Morgan: and maybe that "system safety" could be a check box for each system
Capt_Morgan: say you ALWAYS want your thrusters
Capt_Morgan: but you can live without some shields
Capt_Morgan: or with the shields being degraded at times
Capt_Morgan: you uncheck "safety" on shields in the power mangement UI
Capt_Morgan: and if you lose power in weapons, it will draw out of the shields current supply
Capt_Morgan: but not thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: I can dig it
Capt_Morgan: and so if you fire your weapons constantly
Capt_Morgan: you lose your capacitors, then your shields, then they stop firing
Capt_Morgan: because the request to fire weapons failed a power check
Capt_Morgan: the shield reserve and the weapon reserve current is gone
Capt_Morgan: and the ship is protecting the thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: how does this depend on recharge rate variable based on the number of things requesting power?
CIG Calix Reneau: the power is already split based on the number of things requesting power
Capt_Morgan: is the power allocated in a supply tick?
Capt_Morgan: and when things recharge, is there a rate limit?
CIG Calix Reneau: essentially yes and yes
Capt_Morgan: so like lets say you turn EVERYTHING off in your ship except ONE gun
Capt_Morgan: it should recharge at the max supply rate of the power plant
Capt_Morgan: not at some arbitrary limit
CIG Calix Reneau: it will request the maximum amount of power possible, and the power plant will provide the maximum amount of power possible
Capt_Morgan: because that's essentially how power systems work in real life - there are potentially voltage regulators to keep from melting something
Capt_Morgan: I'll have to go test this later today
Capt_Morgan: it never seemed to me that if someone was firing two weapons instead of six, that those two weapons recharged any faster than if they were firing all six
Capt_Morgan: and by recharge I mean the "capacitor" that the weapon is firing from, of course
CIG Calix Reneau: I'll talk to mark about it
Capt_Morgan: it seems like if you have a super hornet with 6 omis
Capt_Morgan: omnis*
Capt_Morgan: you should be able to fire one omni forever
Capt_Morgan: with the only limit being heat
Capt_Morgan: and even then, if you have a liquid based cooling system (which you should, since air cooling is literally impossible)
Capt_Morgan: then it should be a shared cooling system and the cooling system should defeat the heat load of only one gun forever as well
Capt_Morgan: and the weapon should fire as fast as its fire rate forever
Capt_Morgan: (assuming you can fire 6 omnis for 6 shots before they discharge or overheat)
Capt_Morgan: at the very least, you should get 36 shots from an omni before it loses power/overheats in that scenario
Capt_Morgan: assuming power draw and heat load are the same (which I know they aren't)
Capt_Morgan: the only reason I care so much about this, is that this sort of power balancing should be a big difference between a small ship with a big powerplant and a big ship with a big powerplant but loads of hardpoints
Capt_Morgan: and would give rise to something like the 325A's lore making sense
Capt_Morgan: with it having a big powerplant to support its weapons and make it formidable since it can bear either bigger weapons or longer fire rates
Capt_Morgan: than something like a base hornet, for example, with the same size powerplant but bigger draw from stronger shields and more weapons
Capt_Morgan: anyway, food for thought!
Capt_Morgan: and if you could make it so you could support the cross-system draw or diminished power projectiles, that would be cool too
Capt_Morgan: and by you I of course mean CIG
CIG Calix Reneau: so, the main difference between this and the current system is the upper limit
Capt_Morgan: and of course remember that you still control max DPS of a weapon/ship by the fire rate/projectile damage of a weapon
Capt_Morgan: but all I'm suggesting here is giving people a reason to fire fewer guns at once for greater recharge time
Capt_Morgan: and thus more "spammability" of their lasers if they're beginning pilots
Capt_Morgan: or then providing a reason to yourselves to justify being able to make weapons with capacitors that only provide one or two shots
Capt_Morgan: so if you DO fly something like a 6-omni hornet
Capt_Morgan: and you choose to go for a full-spread alpha shot
Capt_Morgan: you can only do it one or two shots
Capt_Morgan: which would suit an expert pilot just fine
Capt_Morgan: but then a beginner pilot would learn quickly that it would be better to fire just a couple weapons at once if he's not very accurate
CIG Calix Reneau: the systems safety is the power triangle
Capt_Morgan: well, again that's steady state
CIG Calix Reneau: don't know what that means
Capt_Morgan: then again I've not played with it
Capt_Morgan: the the power triangle, if I move power out of shields and into weapons, do my shields decrease power?
CIG Calix Reneau: i mean, obviously it's a state that isn't changing, but I don't understand the implications you're trying to communicate with those words. lol
CIG Calix Reneau: no
Capt_Morgan: does the recharge rate decrease?
Capt_Morgan: (of the shields)
CIG Calix Reneau: in certain circumstances
Capt_Morgan: I'm talking just the constant supplied power
CIG Calix Reneau: if you have enough power to supply the shields anyway, the recharge rate does not decrease
CIG Calix Reneau: if you are firing, the recharge rate of your shields will decrease, because the weapons will take priority
Capt_Morgan: alright
Capt_Morgan: if the weapons are empty?
Capt_Morgan: or if the capacitors are just discharged at all?
CIG Calix Reneau: weapons use a small amount of energy just being powered on
Capt_Morgan: okay so that's what I mean by steady state then
CIG Calix Reneau: so it'll draw 5 from the capacitor every tick, and the capacitor will thus request 5 from the power pool every tick
Capt_Morgan: the prioritization is a constant setup, it's not an on-demand prioritization
Capt_Morgan: system safety means that if a weapon is empty THEN it starts drawing at its normal rate from another system
CIG Calix Reneau: if there is not enough to go around, the power will be split according to the priority
Capt_Morgan: but not until its empty
Capt_Morgan: otherwise the power draws are all the normal rates
CIG Calix Reneau: items would never draw power directly from another item
Capt_Morgan: the power triangle is prioritization no matter the circumstance
CIG Calix Reneau: otherwise, they'd have to know about other items
Capt_Morgan: it's not drawing from the other items per se
Capt_Morgan: it's drawing from the supply given to it
Capt_Morgan: as I said above
CIG Calix Reneau: the minimum power would be whatever is left in the capacitor
Capt_Morgan: I'm saying the prioritization of power allocated would only change if a system was empty and another power request made
Capt_Morgan: given the proposed "system safe" checkbox I said earlier
CIG Calix Reneau: how is that different from setting the priority?
Capt_Morgan: because you don't set priority right at the instant your weapons are empty
Capt_Morgan: you set priority just as you go
Capt_Morgan: for the actual code of how it's done? it's the same idea
Capt_Morgan: it's just a different trigger
CIG Calix Reneau: it's triggered by failure, but there'd be no percievable difference between failing to draw power and then getting it from another system versus taking it from another system to begin with
Capt_Morgan: -sigh- hold on
CIG Calix Reneau: I am open to the idea of opening up the capacitors to draw more power, although I'm not totally convinced a cap isn't needed *somewhere*
CIG Calix Reneau: it's pretty low right now, though
Capt_Morgan: there are two ideas I'm talking about here
Capt_Morgan: 1 is the increased rate limits, essentially
Capt_Morgan: 2 is the system safe
Capt_Morgan: which is the idea that, instead of failing to fire, your systems then will re-prioritize power from any system not deemed "safe" to fulfill the request
CIG Calix Reneau: yeah, I'm sold on increased rate limits, though I don't yet know where it should be instead
Capt_Morgan: and will give the full power required
Capt_Morgan: I mean I don't know necessarily why it the limit wouldn't just be all available excess power
Capt_Morgan: the weapons have a fire rate
Capt_Morgan: it's not like they would somehow fire faster if overpower
Capt_Morgan: overpowered*
Capt_Morgan: and then give people a DPS advantage
Capt_Morgan: if the powerplants are so powerful right now that the weapons in ships would provide continuous fire for all weapons if not limited if they're all fired at once
Capt_Morgan: then that's more a problem with the powerplants being too strong
Capt_Morgan: ideally though, you should be able to look at ship hulls as "platforms"
Capt_Morgan: and the same combination of weapons, shields, and thrusters in a super hornet should work the same way as they would in a 325A
Capt_Morgan: given the same power plant
Capt_Morgan: the difference becomes that the SH has more weapons hardpoints
Capt_Morgan: so if, all things being equal, you just throw more weapons on the SH
Capt_Morgan: you have a platform capable of a higher alpha, but not continuous fire with the now increased weapon load
CIG Calix Reneau: doesn't different hardware have different bandwidths?
CIG Calix Reneau: or whatever the power equivalent of bandwidth would be
Capt_Morgan: I don't know that what you just said makes sense
Capt_Morgan: what do you mean?
Capt_Morgan: what different hardware?
CIG Calix Reneau: if I have a network cable, the cable defines how much data I can push through it
Capt_Morgan: sure
CIG Calix Reneau: is there an equivalent element to electrical wire that affects the amount of electricity that can be pushed through it?
Capt_Morgan: and the network adapter defines then how much data can be pushed as well
Capt_Morgan: but yes
Capt_Morgan: electrical wire size determines amp load
Capt_Morgan: so a 2 gauge wire handles a ton more current load than a 12 gauge wire
Capt_Morgan: (smaller number = bigger when you're talking about gauge)
CIG Calix Reneau: so if the 325 and the super hornet have the same amp load, then the same loadout should perform the same on both
Capt_Morgan: if they have all the same gear
Capt_Morgan: like for some reason both have 2 omnis, the exact same thrusters, the exact same shields, and the exact same power plant
Capt_Morgan: obviously they don't
Capt_Morgan: but the powerplant is almost basically your total "goodness" cap
Capt_Morgan: because all things require power
Capt_Morgan: so if you have a 20,000A powerplant, for instance
Capt_Morgan: and it's in both a super hornet and 325A
Capt_Morgan: then if both ships have the same max thruster and shield capacity
Capt_Morgan: the 325A would obviously be motivated to outfit his ship with better shields and thrusters
Capt_Morgan: since the ship only has hardpoints for 3 weapons
Capt_Morgan: although, of course, if the rate limit is increased
Capt_Morgan: the 325A could still be more fragile and faster
Capt_Morgan: but benefit from a better sustained fire rate on his 3 weapons
Capt_Morgan: and the SH would be either motivated to either fire only 3-4 weapons sustained
Capt_Morgan: or alpha with his 6
Capt_Morgan: and then have to wait longer for his weapons to recharge
Capt_Morgan: a skilled hornet pilot could land successive alpha shots if he's accurate and make good use of the ship
Capt_Morgan: a poor one would likely miss successive huge damage alphas and end up losing the fight - though if he figured out to fire only a couple at a time he could sustain more fire and have better chances of winning.
Capt_Morgan: a bigger powerplant in a SH, though, could permit the same setup in that SH to then fire almost continuously because the recharge rate is so much more over-powered that the weapons practically never discharge
Capt_Morgan: which then would require some balance in smaller ships with bigger powerplants to maybe be much faster or better-shielded (since the max weapons hardpoints become the limiting factor)
Capt_Morgan: of course you then have the larger game design question of "do we want powerplants to essentially be the progression system of our game, and to have distinct differences between new players with crap poweplants who move slower and are easier targets with poorer damage, and then tremendously powerful higher-time players with powerful weapons, shields, thrusters, etc
creneau_cig@robertsspaceindustries.com: I believe that's how it is set up now
Capt_Morgan: I mean, that's okay and all... but there's the fact that it then prevents the weapons from preventing fire by cycle firing, in a way
Capt_Morgan: ie - you then end up with a full "magazine" in the weapons you weren't firing
Capt_Morgan: because they charged their capacitors from the pooled power
Capt_Morgan: so when you run out of power on the first set of two guns out of four (for example), you stop firing those and start firing the other two
Capt_Morgan: since you never ran out of power on the second set, you're still not drawing power from the shared pool when firing the second set, so the first set you fired starts recharging while the second set is firing
Capt_Morgan: but it still allows basically continuous fire if you just keep running a set of guns to zero at a time (unless your recharge time saps so much power you then start running out of shared power)
Capt_Morgan: it's essentially the same as firing all four guns at once until they run out of power, rather than two guns recharging twice as fast when the other weapons aren't drawing
Capt_Morgan: I don't know if there's a way to then charge faster when there isn't other load on the power supply. different examples: if you are firing two guns, you take all the available excess energy not being used by other systems and run that to recharge those two guns
Capt_Morgan: if you fire four guns, you take max excess power and divide that to get your max recharge rate for each gun because now each load wants "all available power"
Capt_Morgan: each gun*
Capt_Morgan: so lets say that four guns fire at a energy depletion rate of "magazine empties in 2 seconds" and all guns are the same
Capt_Morgan: and then for the sake of simplicity, all guns recharge at "magazine now recharges in 2 seconds given no shots fired"
Capt_Morgan: if you instead fire two guns, the guns now get a 2x recharge rate because the recharge demand on the system's excess power is now 1/2 what it was
Capt_Morgan: recharge rate should now be 1 second, but since the depletion rate is 2 seconds, you never hit depletion (or it takes significantly longer, that's actually probably something I should work the math out on since I haven't done a problem like that in a while)
Capt_Morgan: I don't know if you guys are currently doing "power" by just setting XML values for ship weapons somewhere and then the engine just takes it, or if you actually have a separate function that runs something like: "power supplied = powerplant output # - powerplant damage modifier - powerplant repair modifier; power available = power supplied - power used; power used = subsystem1demand + subsystem2demand + ...; subsystem1(weapons) = guns fired power demand;
Capt_Morgan: huh, can't format these...
Capt_Morgan: guns fired power demand = gun1 draw + gun2 draw + ..."
Capt_Morgan: and that power system is then run over messaging system ticks or something
Capt_Morgan: (I don't know how those values are managed in real time with those kinds of engines)
Capt_Morgan: *Totally separate thought* - also, just a heads up, the percentages for power available in the HUD are semi-useless. they should either change color from blue to red or be actual "progress bar" kinda things so we can see available power without squinting to read the %'s.
Capt_Morgan: or, even better, the actual lag pips should change color as the associated guns run out of power (since that's where the player is looking)
CIG Calix Reneau: ok, so if I understand the issue correctly, the buffer of capacitors somehow reduces the effect of power draw on the total system?
CIG Calix Reneau: incredulous tone unintentional, just trying to sum up
Capt_Morgan: well, it reduces the *advantage*, if you will, of firing fewer guns
Capt_Morgan: you can't increase recharge time of two guns by firing only a single fire group of two if you have six, for example
Capt_Morgan: so there is no real disadvantage to firing all six weapons at one time
CIG Calix Reneau: the capacitors aren't limited on their draw from the common pool
Capt_Morgan: hrm... I'll have to test this to be sure on my 325A, but it should be that if you only fired one M3A, for instance, the only thing you'd ever worry about is overheating
CIG Calix Reneau: so a weapon will always recharge at a given rate if there is power available, and six weapons will make there not be power available sooner than two weapons
Capt_Morgan: right, but that's not a good thing
Capt_Morgan: recharge rate should be flexible
Capt_Morgan: power draw should be uniform
CIG Calix Reneau: recharge rate will be flexible, but not with regard to weapon groups
Capt_Morgan: but if you, for instance, have 1000 power available, but only have fired two guns
Capt_Morgan: then the recharge rate should be all available excess power divided by two
Capt_Morgan: (per second)
Capt_Morgan: if you fire all six guns
Capt_Morgan: then it would be all available excess power divided by six per second
CIG Calix Reneau: oh, I see what you mean.
Capt_Morgan: draw rate would be the same. so if you completely deplete all weapons you have a much larger trough to fill
Capt_Morgan: and if you completely deplete the entire trough you then could maybe eat into other systems if you're desperate
CIG Calix Reneau: so the longer you hold down the fire button, the slower you fire?
Capt_Morgan: nah
Capt_Morgan: the more guns you add to the fire button, the longer it takes to recharge any given weapon
Capt_Morgan: and if you have an excess of power, that then gets added to the recharge rate of the weapons that aren't at 100%
CIG Calix Reneau: ok, there is a limit to power draw - it's how much power the power plant provides
Capt_Morgan: yep
CIG Calix Reneau: modified by the power triangle
Capt_Morgan: but there shouldn't be a limit to the recharge rate of a weapon
CIG Calix Reneau: which doesn't split so much as it prioritizes
Capt_Morgan: so you could make a power trough for each weapon that can be as big or as small as you want
CIG Calix Reneau: there would always be a limit to the recharge rate
Capt_Morgan: there shouldn't be
Capt_Morgan: otherwise what's the point of overloading the power triangle to weapons?
CIG Calix Reneau: what you're describing would allow it to operate below that limit
Capt_Morgan: not if you describe a given power per second limit
Capt_Morgan: if you're doing a check before fire
Capt_Morgan: it can check supply rate
Capt_Morgan: supply rate should be how power is provided (given that's how current works in real life, kinda)
Capt_Morgan: your rate of over-current is your charge rate
Capt_Morgan: and if you're under-current a significant amount, it shouldn't' fire
CIG Calix Reneau: but the thing being charged is the capacitor?
Capt_Morgan: well, that's why I kinda think the capacitor thing sorta screws with your gameplay mechanics options
CIG Calix Reneau: what is being charged, if not the capacitor?
Capt_Morgan: well it's a capacitor, of course, even if it's in the weapon, but the degree to which it works right now is over-done
Capt_Morgan: if you hit the end of the capacitor, the weapon should become a direct-draw weapon
Capt_Morgan: which pulls from a per-ms (or whatever rate you want) tick rate for the power plant "supply rate"
Capt_Morgan: so lets say the power plant supplies 10,000A
Capt_Morgan: and 5,000A is taken for shields
Capt_Morgan: 3,000A for engines
Capt_Morgan: and you have 2,000A leftover for weapons
Capt_Morgan: 2,000A gets divided by all capacitors currently not at 100%
Capt_Morgan: if you have six, you then charge at a tick rate of 2,000A / 2 weapons
Capt_Morgan: if you fire two
CIG Calix Reneau: but if you are empty and firing, it pulls directly from the 2000A?
Capt_Morgan: right
Capt_Morgan: and each weapon has a draw rate
Capt_Morgan: and if you only have 1,000A available
Capt_Morgan: maybe it only fires at 50% power if each weapon requres 1,000A
Capt_Morgan: and if you have 500A available
Capt_Morgan: maybe it doesn't fire at all
Capt_Morgan: (50% power meaning the weapon creates a projectile that then only does 50% of the weapons spec'd damage)
Capt_Morgan: you could maybe have a "system safety"
Capt_Morgan: that you could turn off
CIG Calix Reneau: that's a cool thing that is totally not supported at the moment. lol
Capt_Morgan: that allows the weapon that could pull the power from the other systems
Capt_Morgan: the weapon to pull*
CIG Calix Reneau: wouldn't that be the point of priority?
Capt_Morgan: so if you have that 10,000A power plant
CIG Calix Reneau: if you prioritize weapons over thrusters, at some point it should be hard to fly?
Capt_Morgan: and all the systems are given power at tick rates
Capt_Morgan: well, you're talking about a steady-state system setting though
Capt_Morgan: I'm talking about something that's only circumstantial
Capt_Morgan: kinda like boost but the opposite
Capt_Morgan: instead of overloading thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: I think you're losing me again, lol
Capt_Morgan: okay
Capt_Morgan: so we're back at weapons have 0A available
Capt_Morgan: capacitors are empty
Capt_Morgan: 0A are available otherwise, too
CIG Calix Reneau: you fire, nothing happens.
Capt_Morgan: hold on
CIG Calix Reneau: Hud probably wanes
Capt_Morgan: you turn off your "system safety"
Capt_Morgan: which prevents the weapons from drawing power from your thrusters/shields
Capt_Morgan: which previously had protected pipelines guaranteeing 5,000A and 3,000A, respectively
Capt_Morgan: given on a constant tick
Capt_Morgan: let's just say per second, for right now
Capt_Morgan: and you're firing a weapon with a .5s fire rate
Capt_Morgan: and each shot draws 1,000A
Capt_Morgan: per weapon
Capt_Morgan: so in that tick with 0A available to weapons, and the pilot has system safety turned off, he fires again
Capt_Morgan: the weapons then draw 1,000A from the powerplant pipeline, which means 1,000A less is delivered to shields and thrusters
Capt_Morgan: and it's prioritized based on the group prioritizations
Capt_Morgan: so let's just say the shields lose 200A, and the thrusters lose 800A
Capt_Morgan: you lose that percentage of your shields in that tick, and that percentage of your delivered thrust
Capt_Morgan: the guy holds down the fire button
Capt_Morgan: so before the next tick supplies the shields/thusters with more power
Capt_Morgan: another 1,000A are drawn
Capt_Morgan: shields/thrusters lose more power
Capt_Morgan: the pilot lets off
Capt_Morgan: the next recharges shields as if they've taken damage, thrusters as if they've overboosted or something, and weapons capacitors begin their recharge at the original rate
Capt_Morgan: (of 2,000A/2)
Capt_Morgan: "system safety" would have prevented the scenario
Capt_Morgan: and just not allowed the guns to fire
Capt_Morgan: but if a pilot is in a situation where maybe he really thinks he can get the kill, and thinks he has the shields to spare and doesn't need to adjust course
Capt_Morgan: then he's okay with the weapons draw
Capt_Morgan: and maybe that "system safety" could be a check box for each system
Capt_Morgan: say you ALWAYS want your thrusters
Capt_Morgan: but you can live without some shields
Capt_Morgan: or with the shields being degraded at times
Capt_Morgan: you uncheck "safety" on shields in the power mangement UI
Capt_Morgan: and if you lose power in weapons, it will draw out of the shields current supply
Capt_Morgan: but not thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: I can dig it
Capt_Morgan: and so if you fire your weapons constantly
Capt_Morgan: you lose your capacitors, then your shields, then they stop firing
Capt_Morgan: because the request to fire weapons failed a power check
Capt_Morgan: the shield reserve and the weapon reserve current is gone
Capt_Morgan: and the ship is protecting the thrusters
CIG Calix Reneau: how does this depend on recharge rate variable based on the number of things requesting power?
CIG Calix Reneau: the power is already split based on the number of things requesting power
Capt_Morgan: is the power allocated in a supply tick?
Capt_Morgan: and when things recharge, is there a rate limit?
CIG Calix Reneau: essentially yes and yes
Capt_Morgan: so like lets say you turn EVERYTHING off in your ship except ONE gun
Capt_Morgan: it should recharge at the max supply rate of the power plant
Capt_Morgan: not at some arbitrary limit
CIG Calix Reneau: it will request the maximum amount of power possible, and the power plant will provide the maximum amount of power possible
Capt_Morgan: because that's essentially how power systems work in real life - there are potentially voltage regulators to keep from melting something
Capt_Morgan: I'll have to go test this later today
Capt_Morgan: it never seemed to me that if someone was firing two weapons instead of six, that those two weapons recharged any faster than if they were firing all six
Capt_Morgan: and by recharge I mean the "capacitor" that the weapon is firing from, of course
CIG Calix Reneau: I'll talk to mark about it
Capt_Morgan: it seems like if you have a super hornet with 6 omis
Capt_Morgan: omnis*
Capt_Morgan: you should be able to fire one omni forever
Capt_Morgan: with the only limit being heat
Capt_Morgan: and even then, if you have a liquid based cooling system (which you should, since air cooling is literally impossible)
Capt_Morgan: then it should be a shared cooling system and the cooling system should defeat the heat load of only one gun forever as well
Capt_Morgan: and the weapon should fire as fast as its fire rate forever
Capt_Morgan: (assuming you can fire 6 omnis for 6 shots before they discharge or overheat)
Capt_Morgan: at the very least, you should get 36 shots from an omni before it loses power/overheats in that scenario
Capt_Morgan: assuming power draw and heat load are the same (which I know they aren't)
Capt_Morgan: the only reason I care so much about this, is that this sort of power balancing should be a big difference between a small ship with a big powerplant and a big ship with a big powerplant but loads of hardpoints
Capt_Morgan: and would give rise to something like the 325A's lore making sense
Capt_Morgan: with it having a big powerplant to support its weapons and make it formidable since it can bear either bigger weapons or longer fire rates
Capt_Morgan: than something like a base hornet, for example, with the same size powerplant but bigger draw from stronger shields and more weapons
Capt_Morgan: anyway, food for thought!
Capt_Morgan: and if you could make it so you could support the cross-system draw or diminished power projectiles, that would be cool too
Capt_Morgan: and by you I of course mean CIG
CIG Calix Reneau: so, the main difference between this and the current system is the upper limit
Capt_Morgan: and of course remember that you still control max DPS of a weapon/ship by the fire rate/projectile damage of a weapon
Capt_Morgan: but all I'm suggesting here is giving people a reason to fire fewer guns at once for greater recharge time
Capt_Morgan: and thus more "spammability" of their lasers if they're beginning pilots
Capt_Morgan: or then providing a reason to yourselves to justify being able to make weapons with capacitors that only provide one or two shots
Capt_Morgan: so if you DO fly something like a 6-omni hornet
Capt_Morgan: and you choose to go for a full-spread alpha shot
Capt_Morgan: you can only do it one or two shots
Capt_Morgan: which would suit an expert pilot just fine
Capt_Morgan: but then a beginner pilot would learn quickly that it would be better to fire just a couple weapons at once if he's not very accurate
CIG Calix Reneau: the systems safety is the power triangle
Capt_Morgan: well, again that's steady state
CIG Calix Reneau: don't know what that means
Capt_Morgan: then again I've not played with it
Capt_Morgan: the the power triangle, if I move power out of shields and into weapons, do my shields decrease power?
CIG Calix Reneau: i mean, obviously it's a state that isn't changing, but I don't understand the implications you're trying to communicate with those words. lol
CIG Calix Reneau: no
Capt_Morgan: does the recharge rate decrease?
Capt_Morgan: (of the shields)
CIG Calix Reneau: in certain circumstances
Capt_Morgan: I'm talking just the constant supplied power
CIG Calix Reneau: if you have enough power to supply the shields anyway, the recharge rate does not decrease
CIG Calix Reneau: if you are firing, the recharge rate of your shields will decrease, because the weapons will take priority
Capt_Morgan: alright
Capt_Morgan: if the weapons are empty?
Capt_Morgan: or if the capacitors are just discharged at all?
CIG Calix Reneau: weapons use a small amount of energy just being powered on
Capt_Morgan: okay so that's what I mean by steady state then
CIG Calix Reneau: so it'll draw 5 from the capacitor every tick, and the capacitor will thus request 5 from the power pool every tick
Capt_Morgan: the prioritization is a constant setup, it's not an on-demand prioritization
Capt_Morgan: system safety means that if a weapon is empty THEN it starts drawing at its normal rate from another system
CIG Calix Reneau: if there is not enough to go around, the power will be split according to the priority
Capt_Morgan: but not until its empty
Capt_Morgan: otherwise the power draws are all the normal rates
CIG Calix Reneau: items would never draw power directly from another item
Capt_Morgan: the power triangle is prioritization no matter the circumstance
CIG Calix Reneau: otherwise, they'd have to know about other items
Capt_Morgan: it's not drawing from the other items per se
Capt_Morgan: it's drawing from the supply given to it
Capt_Morgan: as I said above
CIG Calix Reneau: the minimum power would be whatever is left in the capacitor
Capt_Morgan: I'm saying the prioritization of power allocated would only change if a system was empty and another power request made
Capt_Morgan: given the proposed "system safe" checkbox I said earlier
CIG Calix Reneau: how is that different from setting the priority?
Capt_Morgan: because you don't set priority right at the instant your weapons are empty
Capt_Morgan: you set priority just as you go
Capt_Morgan: for the actual code of how it's done? it's the same idea
Capt_Morgan: it's just a different trigger
CIG Calix Reneau: it's triggered by failure, but there'd be no percievable difference between failing to draw power and then getting it from another system versus taking it from another system to begin with
Capt_Morgan: -sigh- hold on
CIG Calix Reneau: I am open to the idea of opening up the capacitors to draw more power, although I'm not totally convinced a cap isn't needed *somewhere*
CIG Calix Reneau: it's pretty low right now, though
Capt_Morgan: there are two ideas I'm talking about here
Capt_Morgan: 1 is the increased rate limits, essentially
Capt_Morgan: 2 is the system safe
Capt_Morgan: which is the idea that, instead of failing to fire, your systems then will re-prioritize power from any system not deemed "safe" to fulfill the request
CIG Calix Reneau: yeah, I'm sold on increased rate limits, though I don't yet know where it should be instead
Capt_Morgan: and will give the full power required
Capt_Morgan: I mean I don't know necessarily why it the limit wouldn't just be all available excess power
Capt_Morgan: the weapons have a fire rate
Capt_Morgan: it's not like they would somehow fire faster if overpower
Capt_Morgan: overpowered*
Capt_Morgan: and then give people a DPS advantage
Capt_Morgan: if the powerplants are so powerful right now that the weapons in ships would provide continuous fire for all weapons if not limited if they're all fired at once
Capt_Morgan: then that's more a problem with the powerplants being too strong
Capt_Morgan: ideally though, you should be able to look at ship hulls as "platforms"
Capt_Morgan: and the same combination of weapons, shields, and thrusters in a super hornet should work the same way as they would in a 325A
Capt_Morgan: given the same power plant
Capt_Morgan: the difference becomes that the SH has more weapons hardpoints
Capt_Morgan: so if, all things being equal, you just throw more weapons on the SH
Capt_Morgan: you have a platform capable of a higher alpha, but not continuous fire with the now increased weapon load
CIG Calix Reneau: doesn't different hardware have different bandwidths?
CIG Calix Reneau: or whatever the power equivalent of bandwidth would be
Capt_Morgan: I don't know that what you just said makes sense
Capt_Morgan: what do you mean?
Capt_Morgan: what different hardware?
CIG Calix Reneau: if I have a network cable, the cable defines how much data I can push through it
Capt_Morgan: sure
CIG Calix Reneau: is there an equivalent element to electrical wire that affects the amount of electricity that can be pushed through it?
Capt_Morgan: and the network adapter defines then how much data can be pushed as well
Capt_Morgan: but yes
Capt_Morgan: electrical wire size determines amp load
Capt_Morgan: so a 2 gauge wire handles a ton more current load than a 12 gauge wire
Capt_Morgan: (smaller number = bigger when you're talking about gauge)
CIG Calix Reneau: so if the 325 and the super hornet have the same amp load, then the same loadout should perform the same on both
Capt_Morgan: if they have all the same gear
Capt_Morgan: like for some reason both have 2 omnis, the exact same thrusters, the exact same shields, and the exact same power plant
Capt_Morgan: obviously they don't
Capt_Morgan: but the powerplant is almost basically your total "goodness" cap
Capt_Morgan: because all things require power
Capt_Morgan: so if you have a 20,000A powerplant, for instance
Capt_Morgan: and it's in both a super hornet and 325A
Capt_Morgan: then if both ships have the same max thruster and shield capacity
Capt_Morgan: the 325A would obviously be motivated to outfit his ship with better shields and thrusters
Capt_Morgan: since the ship only has hardpoints for 3 weapons
Capt_Morgan: although, of course, if the rate limit is increased
Capt_Morgan: the 325A could still be more fragile and faster
Capt_Morgan: but benefit from a better sustained fire rate on his 3 weapons
Capt_Morgan: and the SH would be either motivated to either fire only 3-4 weapons sustained
Capt_Morgan: or alpha with his 6
Capt_Morgan: and then have to wait longer for his weapons to recharge
Capt_Morgan: a skilled hornet pilot could land successive alpha shots if he's accurate and make good use of the ship
Capt_Morgan: a poor one would likely miss successive huge damage alphas and end up losing the fight - though if he figured out to fire only a couple at a time he could sustain more fire and have better chances of winning.
Capt_Morgan: a bigger powerplant in a SH, though, could permit the same setup in that SH to then fire almost continuously because the recharge rate is so much more over-powered that the weapons practically never discharge
Capt_Morgan: which then would require some balance in smaller ships with bigger powerplants to maybe be much faster or better-shielded (since the max weapons hardpoints become the limiting factor)
Capt_Morgan: of course you then have the larger game design question of "do we want powerplants to essentially be the progression system of our game, and to have distinct differences between new players with crap poweplants who move slower and are easier targets with poorer damage, and then tremendously powerful higher-time players with powerful weapons, shields, thrusters, etc
